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An Interview with Siegfried (Zig) Engelmann: About Follow Through
- Categorized in: Commentaries and Reports
Michael F. Shaughnessy Senior Columnist EdNews.org
Eastern New Mexico University
1. I understand that you have a new book about the 5 million kids that you believe we have left behind. What's this all about?
It's about the best kept secret in education and the implications this secret has for teaching at-risk kids effectively in the primary grades. Follow Through was the most massive educational experiment ever conducted. It involved 200,000 kids in 180 communities (both rural and urban), but very few people in education or outside know anything about it.
This project paired up 22 different approaches to teaching Title 1 kids in K through 3 with school districts that agreed to implement the selected approach for 8 years. The project started in 1968 and was evaluated 1977.
Kids in one approach outperformed all the others in all areas measured— reading, language, math, and spelling—and also had the most strongly positive self-images. Yet, the outcomes of this study were never disseminated, even though educators today face the same problems they faced in 1968, but still don't know much about how to solve the problem of the poor performance of kids who grow up in poverty.
The book tells the story about what happened, and why this winning approach outperformed the others, but was never disseminated or promoted by the Feds. The book presents evidence that has never been revealed about the contorted logic used by the Office of Education and the National Institute of Education for officially suppressing the outcomes of Project Follow Through. The story is told through a series of first-person episodes and vignettes that start before Follow Through and continue to the present. Some of the events are humorous; many are sad; and some are shocking.
2. Who is the publisher?
I hope to interest a major trade-book publisher in the work, but so far I haven't made much progress. In fact I have contacted five literary agents and none was interested in even reading the book or part of it. I'm going to continue trying to find a publisher, but in the meantime,
I'm posting the book on my website according to the following schedule.
Chapter 1: Before Project Follow Through (January 22)
Chapter 2: Project Follow Through Begins (January 29)
Chapter 3: Follow Through Continues (February 5)
Chapter 4: During Follow Through (February 12)
Chapter 5: Follow Through Evaluation (February 19)
Chapter 6: Follow Through Aftermath (February 26)
Chapter 7: The New Millennium (March 5)
Each chapter will remain on my website http://www.Zigsite.com for two weeks. Once it's off, it's off and will not return.
People may download chapters, but understand that the material is copyrighted by me and is not to be distributed or published without
consent.
3. Tell us a little bit about the book.
It begins with my first job in education, as a research associate with the Institute for Research on Exceptional Children and the University of Illinois, and tells about the success we had with preschool at-risk children. It tells how we went about developing successful programs and how we learned about working effectively with at-risk kids. Most of what we learned came from mistakes we made. We had the idea that if we did it the right way, the kids would learn whatever we taught. If they didn't learn, we screwed up. We learned a lot (which means we screwed up a lot).
Much of the book tells about what we did in Follow Through, working in challenging places like Ocean Hill and the south Bronx in NYC, and project schools in Chicago during the riots and unrest of the Black Power movement. The book also takes readers to places very few have visited, such as BIA schools in South Dakota and isolated communities like Uvalde, Texas.
Many episodes were dramatic.
4.What are some of the specific groups with which you have worked?
The book provides short tours that describe some of the work we've done with failed high school students, those with serious behavior problems, deaf students, and autistic children. These groups shaped our knowledge on strategies for teaching content that is highly unfamiliar to the students and therefore very difficult for them to learn.
5. What is the theme of the book?
The theme is that urban school districts, as they are currently configured, can't possibly work because their structure, logic, and philosophy are anti-scientific. These districts can be reformed, but it will take a massive effort because they are so screwed up and self-serving.
6. Who is the intended audience?
People who are concerned with the poor performance of at-risk schools and those who have interest in education and the plight of failed kids. The book is not necessarily written for educators. The style is not formal, and although the book deals with many issues of teaching and training, they are framed in the context of concrete situations, what kids are trying to learn, the problems they have, and how the problems are solved. The book possibly has boring places, but it attempts to show the reader the kind of understanding someone must have to create effective instruction and reorganize and manage
failed schools.
7. What has been the reaction of the general public, so far?
I don't know. Chapter 1 had over 1200 hits the first week it was on the website, and I have received dozens of notes about the chapter. Of those who responded, none was negative, but most of these people were professional educators who have interest in Direct Instruction. The dozen or so people that I know of who are not in education had about the same reaction as the others. They found it engaging, often sad, but they liked it. I don't have information beyond these few and the fact that my website had never had anything like 1200 hits in a
week before chapter 1.
8. Any final comments?
Once each chapter has been on the website for two weeks, it is off the site and won't return. So chapter 1 is already in its second week. If somebody wants to read the book from the beginning, they have until Monday at 7:00 am Pacific time to do it (or download it). All but one of the chapters is long. We tried to set up the website so that somebody can view the chapters on screen and download a different "print friendly" version (only 32 pages, compared to 86 pages for the on-screen version). I welcome comments, and I'll read them all and consider all. But I probably wont be able to respond to most of them if I expect to meet any of the deadlines set for other things I have to do. I think the book will make you sad, possibly angry, but will take you on some interesting journeys and hopefully, it won't discourage you. We can provide good instruction for kids in failed schools.
Published February 7, 2007
Eastern New Mexico University
1. I understand that you have a new book about the 5 million kids that you believe we have left behind. What's this all about?
It's about the best kept secret in education and the implications this secret has for teaching at-risk kids effectively in the primary grades. Follow Through was the most massive educational experiment ever conducted. It involved 200,000 kids in 180 communities (both rural and urban), but very few people in education or outside know anything about it.
This project paired up 22 different approaches to teaching Title 1 kids in K through 3 with school districts that agreed to implement the selected approach for 8 years. The project started in 1968 and was evaluated 1977.
Kids in one approach outperformed all the others in all areas measured— reading, language, math, and spelling—and also had the most strongly positive self-images. Yet, the outcomes of this study were never disseminated, even though educators today face the same problems they faced in 1968, but still don't know much about how to solve the problem of the poor performance of kids who grow up in poverty.
The book tells the story about what happened, and why this winning approach outperformed the others, but was never disseminated or promoted by the Feds. The book presents evidence that has never been revealed about the contorted logic used by the Office of Education and the National Institute of Education for officially suppressing the outcomes of Project Follow Through. The story is told through a series of first-person episodes and vignettes that start before Follow Through and continue to the present. Some of the events are humorous; many are sad; and some are shocking.
2. Who is the publisher?
I hope to interest a major trade-book publisher in the work, but so far I haven't made much progress. In fact I have contacted five literary agents and none was interested in even reading the book or part of it. I'm going to continue trying to find a publisher, but in the meantime,
I'm posting the book on my website according to the following schedule.
Chapter 1: Before Project Follow Through (January 22)
Chapter 2: Project Follow Through Begins (January 29)
Chapter 3: Follow Through Continues (February 5)
Chapter 4: During Follow Through (February 12)
Chapter 5: Follow Through Evaluation (February 19)
Chapter 6: Follow Through Aftermath (February 26)
Chapter 7: The New Millennium (March 5)
Each chapter will remain on my website http://www.Zigsite.com for two weeks. Once it's off, it's off and will not return.
People may download chapters, but understand that the material is copyrighted by me and is not to be distributed or published without
consent.
3. Tell us a little bit about the book.
It begins with my first job in education, as a research associate with the Institute for Research on Exceptional Children and the University of Illinois, and tells about the success we had with preschool at-risk children. It tells how we went about developing successful programs and how we learned about working effectively with at-risk kids. Most of what we learned came from mistakes we made. We had the idea that if we did it the right way, the kids would learn whatever we taught. If they didn't learn, we screwed up. We learned a lot (which means we screwed up a lot).
Much of the book tells about what we did in Follow Through, working in challenging places like Ocean Hill and the south Bronx in NYC, and project schools in Chicago during the riots and unrest of the Black Power movement. The book also takes readers to places very few have visited, such as BIA schools in South Dakota and isolated communities like Uvalde, Texas.
Many episodes were dramatic.
4.What are some of the specific groups with which you have worked?
The book provides short tours that describe some of the work we've done with failed high school students, those with serious behavior problems, deaf students, and autistic children. These groups shaped our knowledge on strategies for teaching content that is highly unfamiliar to the students and therefore very difficult for them to learn.
5. What is the theme of the book?
The theme is that urban school districts, as they are currently configured, can't possibly work because their structure, logic, and philosophy are anti-scientific. These districts can be reformed, but it will take a massive effort because they are so screwed up and self-serving.
6. Who is the intended audience?
People who are concerned with the poor performance of at-risk schools and those who have interest in education and the plight of failed kids. The book is not necessarily written for educators. The style is not formal, and although the book deals with many issues of teaching and training, they are framed in the context of concrete situations, what kids are trying to learn, the problems they have, and how the problems are solved. The book possibly has boring places, but it attempts to show the reader the kind of understanding someone must have to create effective instruction and reorganize and manage
failed schools.
7. What has been the reaction of the general public, so far?
I don't know. Chapter 1 had over 1200 hits the first week it was on the website, and I have received dozens of notes about the chapter. Of those who responded, none was negative, but most of these people were professional educators who have interest in Direct Instruction. The dozen or so people that I know of who are not in education had about the same reaction as the others. They found it engaging, often sad, but they liked it. I don't have information beyond these few and the fact that my website had never had anything like 1200 hits in a
week before chapter 1.
8. Any final comments?
Once each chapter has been on the website for two weeks, it is off the site and won't return. So chapter 1 is already in its second week. If somebody wants to read the book from the beginning, they have until Monday at 7:00 am Pacific time to do it (or download it). All but one of the chapters is long. We tried to set up the website so that somebody can view the chapters on screen and download a different "print friendly" version (only 32 pages, compared to 86 pages for the on-screen version). I welcome comments, and I'll read them all and consider all. But I probably wont be able to respond to most of them if I expect to meet any of the deadlines set for other things I have to do. I think the book will make you sad, possibly angry, but will take you on some interesting journeys and hopefully, it won't discourage you. We can provide good instruction for kids in failed schools.
Published February 7, 2007
Comments (14)
#1
Mona McNee
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 08:31 am
Engelmann shuold get a Nobel prize
Reply to this Comment
#2
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 10:18 am
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#3
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 11:23 am
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#4
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 03:13 pm
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#5
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 03:49 pm
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#6
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 05:07 pm
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#7
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 05:19 pm
Hope this gets a publisher's attention.
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#8
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 08:30 pm
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#9
John Shewmaker
Said this on 2-7-2007 At 11:13 pm
I've read all 5 chapters available so far (this includes 3 preliminary drafts). I am not a professional educator but a lawyer. I liked the book. Also, Zig is absolutely right, and I base that on my raising 4 sons through so-called excellent public schools. They aren't nearly as good as they think they are, and I know they aren't because I was educated in absolutely first-rate private schools, and they made the same mistakes that the public schools make, even though they are "better." Zig is one of the few people actually to consider exactly how children do in fact learn, and to consider that question closely without trying to prove some flim-flam theory. Read the book yourself with an open mind, and learn something new. Then help Zig find a good publisher. Maybe you know someone he doesn't know.
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#10
Said this on 2-8-2007 At 03:45 pm
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#11
Said this on 2-9-2007 At 12:04 pm
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#12
Said this on 2-16-2007 At 10:46 am
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#13
Said this on 2-21-2007 At 07:02 pm
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#14
Said this on 2-22-2007 At 11:26 am
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