EducationNews.org

It is always good news when one hears about a new book from Charles Murray. In this interview, he discusses his latest book, " Real Education" and comments on needed educational change.

1) First of all, what led you to write the book " Real Education"?

At the beginning of 2007 I wanted to write an op ed about No Child Left Behind, which I think is a terrible law, but in writing it, I suddenly realized that I had much more fundamental problems with education policy. The basics of Real Education just popped out in about an hour and a half one evening (and I never work in the evening, ordinarily). It was one of the most unusual intellectual experiences I've ever had.

2) What are these "Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality"?

Ability varies (about as simple as it gets); Half of the children are below average (I can prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt); too many people are going to college (obvious, when you stop to think about it) and the future of America depends on how we educate the academically gifted (a simple truth, but easily misunderstood) 

3) Are politicians in touch with the challenges that teachers face in terms of the extreme heterogeneity that teachers face on a daily basis?

The politicians seem to be unwilling to acknowledge that heterogeneity even exists.

4) Since the 1960's schools have had the responsibility of educating students with a wide variety of exceptionalities- ranging from deafness and blindness to autism to benign congenital hypotonia. Is there a better way to educate children with exceptionalities or are the schools being asked to do too much?

Intuitively, one thinks that the answer is yes, but this is an area where expertise in pedagogy is important, and I don't have that expertise.

5) I certainly know that "ability varies"—from an I.Q. of 10 to an I.Q. of 160. Yet why do so few people discuss the wide variety of ability that students have- have they not taken statistics, or do they just dislike " the Bell Curve" or do they not believe in the Gaussian curve?

They want to believe that kids are malleable—that any shortcomings in classroom performance that we observe will respond if the teachers try hard enough.

6) Any reputable statistician, and any sane mathematician knows that half the students in any school are below average in intelligence.  Are we trying to create a society like Garrison Keilor's Lake Wobegon where all of the students are above average in intelligence?

We passed a federal law mandating that they all be above average. I'm not exaggerating. NCLB requires that all children—all—be proficient in reading and math by 2014. The "proficiency" level on the National Assessment of Educational Progress is passed by only about 30 percent of students.

To put it another way, NCLB expects all children in 2014 to be at the 70th percentile of children when th law passed in 2002. It is absolutely idiotic.

7) We all know that we need electricians, carpenters, plumbers, nurse's aids, truck drivers and a host of other individuals to make our society run and function. Yet why do we insist on demanding that all children go to college?

It's a status thing, combined with reality that the mean income of people who get BAs is higher than the mean income of people who don't. But that datum is vastly misleading—means are deceptive for individual students thinking about their prospects, and the economic value of the BA often has nothing to do with what has actually been learned. Of all the possible contributions that Real Education might make, the one that would please me most is if the BA were recognized for the divisive and punishing fraud that it is.

8) I have read some of your other work where you insist that high I.Q. students need special education or gifted education or some other form of challenge. Why are we neglecting the group that some refer to as the "best and the brightest"?

Actually, my take on the education of the gifted is somewhat different than people might expect. In K-12, the gifted do in fact need classes that are appropriate to their ability. But the more serious problem arises in college. I encourage you to read chapter 4 in full, but I can give you the bottom line: The problem in college is not that the gifted are being neglected, but that they are pampered. I want the smug and the overprivileged to have their feet held to the fire.

9) How can we go about "letting change happen"?

In K-12, to paraphrase John Galt, make the politicians and educational administrators get the hell out of the way. Hardly any set of parents and teachers in a school operated independently would come up with the curriculum and rules of comportment that characterize so many of today's public schools. Regarding college, market forces will probably come to our rescue. We just need to muzzle the politicians who keep passing laws trying to get more kids to go to college.

Published August 28, 2008