EducationNews.org

An Interview with Jay Mathews: On AP Classes- Clarifying the Good, the Bad, the Questionable and the Dubious

 

Michael F. Shaughnessy - June 30, 2009
Senior Columnist EducationNews.org
Eastern New Mexico University
Portales, New Mexico

 

1) Jay, around this time every year, Newsweek publishes your list of top high schools in America. And around this time every year, there is some concern about the criteria. Let's set the record straight. What are the criteria and how did you determine this criteria?

 

It is a measure of college-level test participation at each high school. We divide the total number of AP, IB or Cambridge tests given to all students (notice, we don't look at test scores) and divide by the number of graduating seniors. I came up with this idea a decade ago to dramatize the fact that some schools perceived to be great were not letting their average students take AP, even though the data showed that taste of college trauma would be good for them, and some schools perceived to be poor WERE urging their average students to take AP. I wanted a list that shamed that first group of schools and recognized the second.

 

2) IF there are some rapscallions out there who disagree, could they write to you to voice their concerns and complaints? Would you change anything?

 

I love getting emails on this issue. They should go to mathewsj@washpost.com. They might first, however, read my FAQs on the Newsweek.com web site, the best summary of my rationale, and the evidence supporting it. I have added new features based on reader complaints and suggestions, but so far no one has come up with an argument that convinced me the basic rating formula was wrong.

 

3) Now Let's talk about the "AP Problem". I don't see it as a problem, but some feel those classes should be highly restricted-what are your feelings on this?

 

Such people have never spent any significant time at schools that do NOT restrict access to AP. If readers want to share my intellectual journey, they can start where I did, Garfield High in East Los Angeles in the 1980s.

Read my book Escalante, about the low-income students in that school, and their teachers, discovering they could do well in AP with just some extra time and encouragement, and then explain to me why this is a bad idea.

 

Or better yet, visit one of the schools ranked high by Newsweek that have opened AP to all students. Talk to those students, and then tell me why they are wrong to want to have this chance to exercise their academic muscles.

 

4) Should there be a system of pre-requisites established for students to take AP classes?

 

Only in those subjects--math and foreign language particularly---where you need to know a lot of previous content or you will be lost in the AP level course. For most other AP courses, particularly English and social studies, and I think the sciences too, if you can read, write and comprehend English and are willing to work hard, the benefits of AP are going to be great no matter what your previous academic preparation.

 

5) I know that some AP classes require students to actually read both fiction and non-fiction books and to write about what they learned. Given the amount of writing that a teacher has to review and perhaps correct, isn’t it reasonable that these classes be restricted? I would posit that the same holds true for higher order math and science classes and the lab work involved?

 

I don't get the question. The teacher's available time for reviewing student work is determined by the size of the AP class, not the restrictions on AP enrollment by average students. If you have more kids signing up for AP, open up more AP classes, and keep the size of each class at a reasonable level. You don't have enough competent teachers? How do you know until you let them teach the course?

 

AP has been proven to inspire great teacher effort and growth, as well as great student effort and growth.

 

6)  Should high school students be able to take college classes if their parents and perhaps guidance counselor felt it appropriate?

 

I would leave out both the parents and the counselors. If the students feel they are able, they should be allowed to take those courses. The parents and the counselors are not the ones who are going to have to do the work.

 

7) In your humble opinion, why are AP classes so important, particularly the math and science classes?

 

I don't think the math and science AP courses are more important than any other. AP and IB, as well as Cambridge, are important because they are the only high school courses we have in the United States that set a high and incorruptible standard for learning. It is not the course so much that is the key, but the exams. The high school teacher does not write or grade those exams. They cannot be “dumbed down”, as high school finals can be , and often are. That is a very important difference, and changes the entire dynamic of those high school college-level classes.

 

8) What should Arne Duncan be saying to the teachers of America about AP classes?

 

The only ticket into an AP course should be motivation--a willingness to work hard. Any school that requires students to have a certain GPA, or a teacher's recommendation, for AP needs to look at the success of schools that do not have such barriers. Otherwise they are committing educational malpractice, and not knowing why.

 

9) Tough question- but perhaps when you have the time you could e-mail me a list of important books that high school students should read before they graduate high school. Or perhaps you could give me your top ten now. But, the real question is, are high school teachers requiring enough, demanding enough, and if not what can be done about it?

 

That great question is beyond my competence, and I think the best answer would be different for every kid. One quality of a great teacher is to steer students toward the books that would inspire them, so I leave that good work to those teachers. The answer to your last question is for most high school teachers a no.

 

And it is not their fault, but their school systems's fault for not setting standards higher. Just as an example, Will Fitzhugh of the Concord Review notes that high schools rarely if ever require all students to read an entire non-fiction book (not counting textbooks.)

 

A good start would be to make that a requirement for graduation.

 

10) What have I neglected to ask about the entire topic of AP classes? Are you going to perhaps write a book soon on this topic?

 

Things are getting better, but we have a long way to go. To get on the Newsweek list, a high school would need to have only half of its juniors and half of its seniors take a single AP course and test each year. That is a very modest standard. But 94 percent of U.S. high schools don't meet it.

We should work on that.

 

I have written two books about AP (Escalante and Class Struggle) and one about IB (Supertest). I think my next book will be about high schools, how they have changed, how much more they have to change, and how much we overlook the impact they have on our lives. And maybe some stuff on why I have become so obsessed with them.